Laser Combat Reimagined - Revision history

Cholmondely: Added another link

2021-11-15T16:19:38Z

Added another link

Cholmondely: Page updated

2021-07-23T18:50:30Z

Page updated

Cholmondely: Tweaked to take into account Redspear's BB critique.

2021-07-21T15:21:01Z

Tweaked to take into account Redspear's BB critique.

Cholmondely: Page Updated with Redspear's new analysis

2021-07-21T07:34:05Z

Page Updated with Redspear's new analysis

Cholmondely: Tweaks!

2021-04-20T13:18:27Z

Tweaks!

Cholmondely: GalCop Health Warning: This page is an incomplete description of what this .oxp currently does!

2021-01-26T13:00:41Z

GalCop Health Warning: This page is an incomplete description of what this .oxp currently does!

Cholmondely: Added Summary

2020-12-30T22:57:45Z

Added Summary

Cholmondely: Added picture!

2020-12-30T22:37:19Z

Added picture!

Cholmondely: /* Suggested Changes */ Formatted quotes

2020-12-30T22:33:18Z

‎Suggested Changes: Formatted quotes

Cholmondely: Page Created

2020-12-30T22:28:12Z

Page Created

New page

Continuing [[User:Redspear|my series]] of pompously titled oxps, I'm looking at lasers this time and I believe I can make them more fun.

Why Change?

== Analysis ==

'''The Beginner's Experience (the pulse laser):'''

*A beginner in a Cobra III is likely to face worse ships in greater numbers and some of those are likely to have greater weapons. Although escape is often possible it is a laborious affair with nearly half the scanner being out of anyone's range.
*The beam laser is far superior to the pulse laser and can make short work of the player early game. Being longer range than the pulse laser a novice pilot is often better not engaging in the first place. Not fun when running at the first flash of yellow.
*Fast as it is, the Cobra III can't usually escape from Sidewinders or Asps (with the former being a fairly common assailant and a difficult target).

'''Summary: You need to run a lot which would be fine except that it takes so long to do so.'''

----
'''The Novice's Experience (the beam laser):'''

*Once you have the beam laser targets with a pulse laser become much easier opponents. You still can't expect to regularly win combats when outnumbered (which you frequently are). Although you can meet police or a combat in progress, you are not followed by escorts nor do you have pirate accomplices and so the role of 'player' remains one of the most vulnerable
*Whilst a rear mounted beam laser can be especially potent it's an unfortunate strategy to have to gain kills by running away (both counterintuitive and less exciting)
*It's an easy weapon to overheat (as it should be given it's other properties) but pirates rarely seem to make this mistake. The player has to learn to make it work (good design) but rarely has safe opportunity to do so (less good)

'''Summary: You have a much better weapon now but you don't get much chance to exploit it. You still need to run a lot due to the prevalence of pirate packs and likely due also to threat assessment mechanics'''

----
'''The Veteran's Experience (the military laser):'''

Quoting [[User:cim|cim]] (from an admittedly old post),
::''The military laser is far too good to give to NPCs, but once the player has even one (on the aft mount, preferably) it becomes virtually impossible to lose most fights regardless of enemy numbers because of its extreme range it's not necessarily particularly fun to fight like that.''

*Sniping is a popular tactic but at double the range of the beam laser it means that you can pick the toughest adversary and remove them from the fight fairly easily (and probably another of their allies) before they can close on you
*Large packs are required in order to present any kind of a challenge but almost always the player is the only one with a military laser. This both contradicts 'non player centric' design and makes the weapon seem underpriced and too commonly available

'''Summary: If you're cautious enough then combat becomes much easier. The jump from beam to military is enormous: double range AND double power. Arguably this is exactly the advantage that the player needs most of the time but the range advantage on a rear mounted laser is overpowered. Rear lasers encourage not only sniping but 'shooting gallery' sniping where most targets can't get near you unless you let them.'''

----
== Observations ==

*The scanner is very large and determines both mass-lock (and therefore escape) and range, nearly half of it being exclusive to the military laser
*Pirate packs are near ubiqitous as a solution to every player having some kind of a challenge - but for those without a military laser almost nowhere is safe
*Rear shooting is a problem in that it rewards caution over skill and with a longer ranged weapon is potentially dull

=== Suggested Changes ===

*That nearly half the scanner is only reachable by the military laser is extreme, especially given the time it can take ships to cross this distance. This 10km domain should not be exclusive IMHO and yet sniping is both popular and for some even fun (more so from the front than the back I would argue).

*Canonically the military laser is twice the range and power of the beam laser - and it's nice to stick with canon if we can - so why not grant the extra range to the pulse laser?

::''Ingram Model 1919A4 Pulse Laser is recommended for all positional laser mountings, but is especially effective for rear-shooting.'' (Elite Manual)

The problem, as highlighted by ''another_commander'' in the rescaling thread, would be that the beginning player would be rewarded for rear mounting a pulse laser and picking off targets all too easily. The solution could be a very simple one: only grant the beam laser to the faster ships. For example:

::[[File:Laser Combat Reimagined 1.jpg]]

*Now pulse lasers are actually quite useful, not overpowered and yet have a role to play in a pirate pack without challenging the superiority of either the military or beam lasers.

*Note that the threshold value (RSS) of 0.35 exludes anything slower than a Mk III from using a beam laser (by default) and so that range exploit is unlikely. Bump it up to 0.36 and every ship with a beam laser can potentially gain on the starting player.

==== Remaining Problems ====

*There is an issue with regards to auto_weapons (i.e. non-player weapon selection by role) and even to weapon choice amongst slower player vessels but I'll come to that later.
*Rear sniping with the beam laser is not as attractive an option but this tactic remains exploitative for the military laser.

''Unless:''

::[[File:Laser Combat Reimagined 2.jpg]]

*So a rear mounted weapon of any type is useful but not exploitative unless you're flying a faster vessel and they tend to favor the high powered, shorter ranged weapons. True the military laser completely outclasses the beam laser but there's no way under normal circumstances that the player is starting with one (or that the non-player ships generally should be allowed one).

*The beginning pilot would be more likely to give combat a try (or at least be able to practice shooting) and the military laser could still get some sniping in versus incoming pulse fire (more exciting too). However, there is perhaps too much range advantage for the pulse laser versus the beam.

Is there a way to challenge the military laser's dominance without compounding the problem?

''How about this:''

::[[File:Laser Combat Reimagined 3.jpg]]

We now have six laser colours encompassing all of the primary (red, green, blue) and secondary (cyan, magenta, yellow) colours of the RGB colour model; all distinctive and clear to those without colour blindness.

So much for cosmetics, what do these new heavy pulse lasers add to gameplay? Imagine shots from larger, less mobile vessels, intermittently fired from great distance; trying to dodge incoming fire in the hope of closing in to where you can make your superior rate of fire pay off. Sounds cool but what about exploits, balance and the like?

Just as the range bonus to the pulse laser grants it some kind of a chance versus a beam laser the heavy pulse presents at least a minor challenge to the military laser.

The anaconda and the python are far too slow to mount a beam laser (and military lasers are too dangerous for most non player ships) but shouldn't these mighty vessels have something more powerful than a pulse laser at their disposal? Get their rate of fire right and the sniping player with a military laser now has a reason to head towards the target rather than away from it. Perhaps they should only be available to the largest player ships or imagine them on capital ships... We'd now have room for oxp behemoths to snipe at the player!

The beam laser is really a dogfighting weapon now but it's quite potent at that range and the mining laser is perhaps a passable weapon when pressed into service, as it was intended to be:

::''Kruger Model ARM64 Sp. Mining laser is highly recommended as both a trade and combat addition.'' (Elite Manual)

But what about player progression, upgrading your weapons?

Many ships aren't really suitable for a beam laser anymore and there weren't exactly a glut of weapons to chose from in the core game in the first place. Well, canonically there was more than one kind of pulse laser, so why not something like this?

::[[File:Laser Combat Reimagined 4.jpg]]

You now have a reason for ships to favor different weapon types beyond pure economics. There's strategy too: beam laser on the front perhaps but are you sure you don't want a pulse on the rear? Want to upgrade your laser? There are now 3 varieties of each and you're more likely to choose a different type than before.

Note the potential use of an auto_weapons type system as well as simple possibilities around mining.

How would a standard non-player distribution of weapons look?

Perhaps something like this:

::[[File:Laser Combat Reimagined 5.jpg]]

Traditionally the beam laser made the pulse laser obsolete and then the military laser did the same to the beam (by an even bigger margin). That suited the original Elite much better than it does Oolite IMHO and I think this might be a way to keep the flavour of the original weapons without some of the inherent problems.

== Links ==
*[https://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20088 BB Discussion]
*[[User:Redspear|Redspear]]

{{weapon-OXP}}

@@ Line 192: / Line 192: @@
 *[[User:Redspear|Redspear]] for links to other OXPs such as Missile Combat reimagined, ''etc''.
 *[[Oolite Equipment]]
 {{weapon-OXP}}

@@ Line 9: / Line 9: @@
 == Overview ==
 '''OXP purpose:'''
 :To avoid the extremes of being consistently outgunned at game start and of having minimal challenge once acquiring a military laser.
@@ Line 19: / Line 21: @@
 :Mining Laser updated to be combat practical and slightly superior to pulse
-New Player progression: Pulse -> Mining -> Beam -> Burst -> Military
+*New Player progression: Pulse -> Mining -> Beam -> Burst -> Military
+*New Non-player progression: Defence -> Pulse -> Mining -> Beam - > Burst
 Player has the same range of progression as before but it's now less extreme (may need to increase pricing progression in future...)
@@ Line 27: / Line 29: @@
 Non-players now have an expanded range with (crucially) options between both pulse to beam and beam to military.
 == Older summaries and analysis ==

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 [[File:Pulse laser small.jpg|400px|thumb|right|Pulse Laser]]
-There are now FIVE categories of ''player laser''.
+There are now SIX categories of ''player laser''.
-*'''Pulse lasers''' now have ''extended range''
+*'''Defence lasers''' are new: the cheapest laser.
 *'''Beam lasers''' have ''speed'' and are good for dogfights.
 *'''Military lasers''' are expensive all-rounders which heat up too quickly

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 *'''Pulse lasers''' now have ''extended range''
 *'''Beam lasers''' have ''speed'' and are good for dogfights.
@@ Line 8: / Line 6: @@
 *'''Mining lasers''' are slow and ''powerful''
 *'''Burst lasers''' are new: a weaker version of the military laser.
 == Overview ==
 Crude summary:
@@ Line 140: / Line 177: @@
 Traditionally the beam laser made the pulse laser obsolete and then the military laser did the same to the beam (by an even bigger margin). That suited the original Elite much better than it does Oolite IMHO and I think this might be a way to keep the flavour of the original weapons without some of the inherent problems.
 == Compatibility with New lasers OXP ==
 ''Re''.: my [[New lasers]], the two oxps currently don't mix very well although I have a plan to address this without requiring significant changes to the UBER new lasers that some people seem to be fond of. Fully compatible? No, at least not in any way that makes much sense. I've only recently removed the exclusive requirement to this oxp in anticipation of updating [[New lasers]].
-(New Lasers introduces 3 new categories of laser in addition to the burst laser: bolt, variscan & defence lasers. There are also 3 varieties of each of the 8 laser types. One variety of each is an uber-laser, buyable only in one system in the galaxy!).
+(New Lasers introduces 3 new categories of laser in addition to the burst laser: bolt, variscan & defence lasers. There are also 3 varieties of each of the 8 laser types. One variety of each is an über-laser, buyable only in one system in the galaxy!).
 == Links ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:00, 26 January 2021
Line 3:		Line 3:

	Why Change?		Why Change?
		+
		+	'''Warning: This page is unfinished. The analysis stands, but the evolution of the response (see BB thread) means that there is not a simple concise description of what this OXP currently does. This is being worked on ... but will take ti-i-i-i-ime!'''

	== Analysis ==		== Analysis ==

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 [[File:Pulse laser small.jpg|400px|thumb|right|Pulse Laser]]
 == Analysis ==
 '''The Beginner's Experience (the pulse laser):'''
@@ Line 14: / Line 45: @@
 *Fast as it is, the Cobra III can't usually escape from Sidewinders or Asps (with the former being a fairly common assailant and a difficult target).
-'''Summary: You need to run a lot which would be fine except that it takes so long to do so.'''
+''Summary: You need to run a lot which would be fine except that it takes so long to do so.''
 '''The Novice's Experience (the beam laser):'''
@@ Line 23: / Line 53: @@
 *It's an easy weapon to overheat (as it should be given it's other properties) but pirates rarely seem to make this mistake. The player has to learn to make it work (good design) but rarely has safe opportunity to do so (less good)
-'''Summary: You have a much better weapon now but you don't get much chance to exploit it. You still need to run a lot due to the prevalence of pirate packs and likely due also to threat assessment mechanics'''
+''Summary: You have a much better weapon now but you don't get much chance to exploit it. You still need to run a lot due to the prevalence of pirate packs and likely due also to threat assessment mechanics''
 '''The Veteran's Experience (the military laser):'''
@@ Line 34: / Line 63: @@
 *Large packs are required in order to present any kind of a challenge but almost always the player is the only one with a military laser. This both contradicts 'non player centric' design and makes the weapon seem underpriced and too commonly available
-'''Summary: If you're cautious enough then combat becomes much easier. The jump from beam to military is enormous: double range AND double power. Arguably this is exactly the advantage that the player needs most of the time but the range advantage on a rear mounted laser is overpowered. Rear lasers encourage not only sniping but 'shooting gallery' sniping where most targets can't get near you unless you let them.'''
+''Summary: If you're cautious enough then combat becomes much easier. The jump from beam to military is enormous: double range AND double power. Arguably this is exactly the advantage that the player needs most of the time but the range advantage on a rear mounted laser is overpowered. Rear lasers encourage not only sniping but 'shooting gallery' sniping where most targets can't get near you unless you let them.''
 ----
@@ Line 40: / Line 69: @@
 *The scanner is very large and determines both mass-lock (and therefore escape) and range, nearly half of it being exclusive to the military laser
-*Pirate packs are near ubiqitous as a solution to every player having some kind of a challenge - but for those without a military laser almost nowhere is safe
+*Pirate packs are near ubiquitous as a solution to every player having some kind of a challenge - but for those without a military laser almost nowhere is safe
 *Rear shooting is a problem in that it rewards caution over skill and with a longer ranged weapon is potentially dull
 === Suggested Changes ===
@@ Line 109: / Line 139: @@
 Traditionally the beam laser made the pulse laser obsolete and then the military laser did the same to the beam (by an even bigger margin). That suited the original Elite much better than it does Oolite IMHO and I think this might be a way to keep the flavour of the original weapons without some of the inherent problems.
 == Links ==
 *[https://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20088 BB Discussion]
 {{weapon-OXP}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:57, 30 December 2020
Line 106:		Line 106:

	Traditionally the beam laser made the pulse laser obsolete and then the military laser did the same to the beam (by an even bigger margin). That suited the original Elite much better than it does Oolite IMHO and I think this might be a way to keep the flavour of the original weapons without some of the inherent problems.		Traditionally the beam laser made the pulse laser obsolete and then the military laser did the same to the beam (by an even bigger margin). That suited the original Elite much better than it does Oolite IMHO and I think this might be a way to keep the flavour of the original weapons without some of the inherent problems.
		+
		+	== Summary ==
		+	There are now FIVE categories of player laser - each with 3 different models.
		+	*'''Pulse lasers''' now have ''extended range''
		+	*'''Beam lasers''' have ''speed'' and are good for dogfights.
		+	*'''Military lasers''' are expensive all-rounders which heat up too quickly
		+	*'''Mining lasers''' are slow and ''powerful''
		+	*'''Bolt lasers''' are new: a weaker version of the military laser.

	== Links ==		== Links ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:37, 30 December 2020
Line 1:		Line 1:
		+	[[File:Pulse laser small.jpg\|400px\|thumb\|right\|Pulse Laser]]
	Continuing [[User:Redspear\|my series]] of pompously titled oxps, I'm looking at lasers this time and I believe I can make them more fun.		Continuing [[User:Redspear\|my series]] of pompously titled oxps, I'm looking at lasers this time and I believe I can make them more fun.

@@ Line 46: / Line 46: @@
 *Canonically the military laser is twice the range and power of the beam laser - and it's nice to stick with canon if we can - so why not grant the extra range to the pulse laser?
-::''Ingram Model 1919A4 Pulse Laser is recommended for all positional laser mountings, but is especially effective for rear-shooting.'' (Elite Manual)
+{{QuoteText|Text=Ingram Model 1919A4 Pulse Laser is recommended for all positional laser mountings, but is especially effective for rear-shooting.|Source=[[The Space Traders Flight Training Manual]]}}
@@ Line 86: / Line 86: @@
 The beam laser is really a dogfighting weapon now but it's quite potent at that range and the mining laser is perhaps a passable weapon when pressed into service, as it was intended to be:
-::''Kruger Model ARM64 Sp. Mining laser is highly recommended as both a trade and combat addition.'' (Elite Manual)
+{{QuoteText|Text=Ingram Model 1919A4 Kruger Model ARM64 Sp. Mining laser is highly recommended as both a trade and combat addition.|Source=[[The Space Traders Flight Training Manual]]}}
 But what about player progression, upgrading your weapons?
@@ Line 105: / Line 105: @@
 Traditionally the beam laser made the pulse laser obsolete and then the military laser did the same to the beam (by an even bigger margin). That suited the original Elite much better than it does Oolite IMHO and I think this might be a way to keep the flavour of the original weapons without some of the inherent problems.
 == Links ==